The Marketing Rules Podcast in Writing: Ben Lund

00:00.00

ThinkinCircles

Welcome back, everybody to the Marketing Rules Podcast and it is an absolute pleasure to have Ben Lund join me today. Ben for those of us in the UK that aren’t familiar with your work. Maybe you could give us a little bit of introduction and a little bit about your background I know there’s been some crossover into the recruitment hr space which is kind of interesting to know as well. But. And then kind of bring us up to speed what you do ah for a day to day to-day now.

00:23.24

Ben

Yeah, James Ah first thanks so much for having me on the show super pumped to be here. So yes, for all those listening my name is ah Ben Lund I’m the founder of Rise Marketing Group we’re based in the Boston area in Massachusetts. My career. You know I’ve been in the marketing space since 2004 which is kind of scary to talk about It’s been a little bit and a variety of different companies mostly big companies like um, early in 2005 I worked at monster.com. So, anyone who’s obviously you guys have a big recruitment audience here. So, I was just um, selling ad space to recruiters and ah hr folk and I was there for a couple of years but and then from there I just continued my evolution in marketing I worked at Yahoo and Yahoo was a big thing when people went there instead of Google to do their searches and navigate the internet and get their horoscope and weather and all that fun stuff and then from there I went to an ad agency for a couple years then I was at Google and Cambridge Massachusetts for until 20182017 or so. And then you know I just took a leap into entrepreneurship. It’s always been something I wanted to do and at the time I was in my mid 30 s and they’re like you know what? if I don’t, I just felt if I don’t do this now. Um I’m probably never going to do it. So, let’s just take the leap see what happens and scratch that itch and here we are founded rise marketing group. Five years later, we’re a performance marketing agency focusing on SEO and paid search and some website development. So that’s ah who we are in a nutshell.

02:02.59

ThinkinCircles

What a great story. Um, and a nice little kind of crossover into the hr and recruitment space and Ben we’re going to talk a little bit around um SEO and pronominally kind of SEO for kind of smaller businesses. Right? That’s kind of what we’re going to discuss today. Um I know obviously that’s where kind of rise marketing has a specialisation. So, I say what? What do we kind of start right? at the beginning right? If you’re a business. You’ve heard of this thing called SEO; you know you should be doing something with it where do where do you start? right? What’s the beginning. What’s that kind of process look like when you kind of want to want to get you to dip your toe into kind of into search engine optimisation. What’s what should you be considering.

02:41.92

Ben

Yeah, so the first thing I would do before you do anything is 1 don’t get overwhelmed because it’s very easy to get overwhelmed with like how I am going to figure out Google’s algorithm and all that good stuff. So, take a deep breath and you can break it down to bite-sized chunks on how to naturally increase your ranking on Google and for smaller businesses. It’s not as hard to rank on Google as it is for larger organisations where it might be more competitive because. For most small businesses. They might be targeting specific geography or maybe that was pockets may not be as competitive and you can really ah have some earlier gains second thing I would do is before you do anything set expectations. So just because you’re embarking in SEO doesn’t mean the ah organic traffic is going to double triple overnight. It’s a long-haul game and I usually only recommend SEO if you expect to be in business for the next two to three years if this is a start-up and you’re not sure where this is going to take you. Don’t even due to SEO because you’re going to waste a lot of effort. But if you’re going to be in business for a few years. SEO is probably gone be 1 of your most profitable channels. Um, even more so probably than Google ads but I say 2 to 3 years just because.

04:04.43

Ben

You’re going to get gains quarter over quarter but it’s incremental gains and when I say incremental gains. It’s like it’s almost like compound entrance interest where you get a 5 % gain month over month and that’s not that exciting for the first six months like all right instead of a hundred clicks, I got 10605 I got 100 and ah, 12 and things like that. But if you do that for between 12 to thirty-six months 5% month over month gains all right now, you’re starting to talk to something that can be impactful for a business. So, I’m going to pause right? there for a second but did that make sense.

04:37.87

ThinkinCircles

Yeah, that kind of totally yeah, I mean I think it’s a good kind of mindset that businesses need to get themselves into, right? It’s kind of don’t get yourself overwhelmed and manage expectations which is usually a great thing for anybody’s kind of even any marketing. But what about things like, any research that you need to do kind of Beforehand I know people talk about kind of keyword research and so you’ve kind of got an idea of where you want to target yourself. So

04:59.61

Ben

Um, yeah, yeah, so next would be doing some keyword research and then after this I’ll talk about some tactical things that you can start to do in priority order because everyone has limited time. So, you want to just kind of do some keyword research like see how competitive it is if anyone um wants a Day ah SEO a great tool that I love and we love at rise’s marketing group is Sem Rush um and there’s other tools out there but where you can do is you can plug in your keywords that you want to rank for so recruiting for whatever industry. Maybe even add some local remodified searches. So, recruitment firm in city state country etc things like that, and just try to find out through Sem Rush and other keyword tools are all very similar. You can understand you want to target keywords that are being searched so decent volume. But then you want to find a good um medium of not only is there search volume. But maybe there’s. Not as much competition and seem rush and the other tools are going to let you know which keywords difficult and which ones are easy or possible and if Sem Rush tells me a keyword is difficult 99% of the time I’m going to be like. Love all the volume there. But and I’m not even going to try it because I don’t want to spend my wheels over the next eight months trying to rank for a keyword and not have anything to show so it’s helpful just to understand which types of keywords so start off with the keyword research and then there’s. There are 3 areas that I recommend for small businesses for SEO, and this is what we implement for our clients for small businesses. So, the first thing I’m going to talk about in priority order is Google my business. It’s probably going to be your fastest way to rank organically on Google next I’m going to talk about site content and the importance of that. And then also building up a backlink profile. So um, if helpful I can maybe start along those 3 if that’s if that’s a good point.

07:07.59

ThinkinCircles

Yeah, that’s just quickly before we do move on just on kind of Keywords If you’re a business and you kind of you’re not sure what Keywords you want to kind of because sometimes I think it can be a bit confusing to say so. For instance, if you’re in the ah recruitment space. You know the term job, right? You know you’re not going to bid on the term job, right? or jobs in London or something right? So do you kind of you know there’s all disease. You know we hear of the term the kind of long tail is that the kind of do you kind of is that where your kind of targeting that kind of slightly drawn-out kind of almost like.

07:37.66

Ben

Um, yeah, exactly. So yeah, exactly So if you’re so for anyone’s recruitment shop. Yeah, don’t go after job.

07:41.88

ThinkinCircles

But keyword the key phrase almost right.

07:50.47

Ben

Even the keyword recruitment. No, I Know how but you want to find what else are people searching that’s tethered to those Keywords. So, for example, most recruitment shops have a specific focus. Maybe it’s I T. Maybe it’s executive. Maybe it’s sales. Then that’s when starts getting an interest of like sales recruitment executive recruitment or remodifies maybe focus on specific cities or countries or things like that recruitment shop in whatever and a lot of companies might even build out service pages. By industry to rank for those specific Keywords or even by Geo Sones to then have an opportunity to rank because if you just go after a recruitment firm, I mean that’s going to be tough to do.

08:36.66

ThinkinCircles

Yeah, yeah, 1 last question before we move on keywords what the kind of protocol on 1 kind of you is known, bidding on your own company name is that something you recommend, or it is not put but there’s no point in it or even kind of like trying to kind of make sure or create content. That you know you know ah boosts your kind of company name and your competitors names is the other way you know I mean yeah.

09:00.15

Ben

Yeah, yeah, exactly So I think you’re referring to more on the paid side of like bidding and.

09:05.77

ThinkinCircles

Hello a little bit. But yeah, but I think it kind of you could kind of start integrating that into your kind of content on your page and stuff like that right? I mean it is you. But yeah.

09:13.81

Ben

Oh yeah, yeah, so fine. Line. It’s ah every industry is unique. You know there’s 2 there’s two sides of the play on search marketing. So, if you just to deviate for a second if you go on like Google ads if you’re. You can bid on anyone’s keyword or recruitment firm and that’s fine and dandy and put you in that consideration set for that. But on the SEO side I probably I mean everyone will know their space. You don’t want to make enemies. So, if you create a bunch of content of like us first ten’s like you do you really want to do that. Probably not because then I don’t know a lot of bad energy I feel like and then also um, you brought up. And your brand on bidding on it and just deviating for a second on Google ads should you bid on your brand to be number 1 in that sponsored position on the search engine results page. Yes, only if you’re not ranking number 1 from a great organic perspective. So maybe you opened a brand-new shop. Your site isn’t ranking. Yeah, bit on your brand because you want to have that presence if someone does do a Google search for you if you’re already ranking number 1 save the cap save the click and you don’t need it need it.

10:23.61

ThinkinCircles

Ber. Okay, so talk us through ah kind of your list and let’s just start with the kind of Google business pages because ah, that’s kind of and I know we help some business with that and it seems to be 1 of those things that you know, kind of has missed a few businesses behind. They didn’t really know it’s there and if they when they do, they.

10:39.61

Ben

Um, yeah, yeah, or I mean there’s so many businesses even nowadays that just have unclaimed listings and you search, and you know it’s awful pictures of just from a Google car going around taking some pictures and like there’s nothing there. So, make sure you claim your listing, or you create your listing and then you know this is a direct way to tell Google what type of business that you are, so I recommend fill out every spot within the Google my business profile claim your listing. Fill every bit description hour. Update your hours based off holidays. Um, linking back to keyword research including some of those keywords that you may want to rank for make sure you have great pictures in there and then reviews is. Going to be a huge component of that. So, every happy customer ask for the review don’t be shy about it. I know some people and we were earlier too like oh no can I ask for a review or are they going to give me 5 stars. Ask for a review and if you’re not sure if what the experience is I always position is, “Hey, if you had a great experience with us. Would you mind taking 5 minutes to leave a review?” Some companies will say they leave a review and for your time I’ll send you a $10 Starbucks gift card or something like that but get those reviews because you’ll see when you do local searches Google my business. Um and those are. Favoured highly on the Google Search Engine Results page it’s not a coincidence that usually those were the most like 5 4-star reviews or ranking number 1 so get those reviews make that a process as part of your business workflow and then the last thing on Google my business is um, you can post updates. Now are people really reading these updates on Google my business I really don’t think so, but it tells Google that you value this space and then they’re taking this platform seriously so that way Google’s like okay they update this information I feel confident in sharing this to my users.

12:39.74

ThinkinCircles

Yeah, yeah, I love that like you know we talk to a lot of our clients, and we treat it more just like another other social network that we post content to everything goes on there. Whether people are looking at you’re right? But it’s kind of it has an effect, right? You I mean if someone does land on your Google business page and they look at the reviews they see that there’s content kind of going out and that it’s kind of updated regularly and all that kind of thing. It only has a kind of a much more kind of like authentic filter as opposed to you know and it just kind of just there’s nothing there at all right? yeah.

13:09.70

Ben

Correct. Yep! Absolutely yeah, so I would prioritise that and then keep that a priority throughout SEO of Google my business Google local and just last ah bit on that.

13:14.82

ThinkinCircles

So, what’s the next kind of there. What’s the next kind of stage what you need to kind of consider.

13:27.74

Ben

If you open other offices other locations create a profile for that location as well. Um, next is I would focus on site content so without adequate content on in the site. You’re never going to rank for a keyword. So, a lot of. Some of the mis cues that we see no fault to our clients or businesses that we support. They’ll have a website and then maybe a services page, but that services page will cover like 5 different services that they offer and there’s no way that you’re going to rank for all these types of Keywords when. You just briefly mention each of these areas that you focus in so base off keyword research start developing content now that content likely to start is going to be more on like pages of your site that you should really build out be much more robust. So maybe it’s remodified pages. Maybe that’s specialty pages. Um, yeah, anything that you really focus on that you think you have an opportunity to rank for keywords create pages for this now when you create pages make sure it’s unique content make sure that you have images. It’s just It’s quality it’s quality stuff you can’t just have 2 paragraphs and a head or tag and then just hope for the best if you even have videos even better. Um, lastly, I know there’s a lot of chat around.

14:51.91

Ben

AI tools for content that can be helpful but don’t have that be a hundred percent of your strategy super helpful to do keyword research on that and maybe get some blurbs or sources. Ah but have your own voice because that’s what’s going to resonate.

15:09.70

ThinkinCircles

So, what about things like kind of ah keyword density on those kinds of pages is there I mean can you just literally every other term is the term that you want to rank for, or you must make it readable, and you have to from a marketeer’s perspective. You just kind of you want to make it kind of pitifully written and not too concerned about the kind of the keyword density. What’s where’s the sweet spot in there. You know.

15:30.98

Ben

Yeah, number 1 write for the users write for the users because think of Google’s business model Google became the behemoth that it has become because it focused on the user and user experience. And if you have a site that’s overly optimised and says like the service that you want to rank for even every paragraph like that’s too much and if you’re reading it. You’re like who wrote this this is like just trash people are going to bounce and that’s going to be a signal to Google is like. Yeah, know you’re optimised towards this keyword, but people don’t like this page like it’s just like it looks like a robot wrote it so focus on the users. Yes, you want to have keyword focus. We don’t really look at a specific keyword density ratio. Really what we look for is. Understanding the keyword that you’re looking for do keyword research of other synonyms that people might be searching on it make sure that keyword is referenced in some header ta so definitely in the page URL hone maybe a couple h two s or age three s and then naturally put it in. Don’t overly do it if you. Once you cross over and it start looking like a little spammy or even remotely close to it just stop. You don’t need you don’t need to overly do it. Um, so it’s more of a gut feeling than a specific mathematical formula in our end.

16:52.64

ThinkinCircles

Um, um, what about kind of ah, linking to other pages within your kind of site does that have an effect is that is that something that was part of the SEO dark art that it used to be is it does it still play a part you know.

17:04.84

Ben

Yeah, yeah, still plays a part and there’s 2 components of that. So, there’s internal links which is references on your own website and so let’s say you have a homepage and then you create this new service page for recruiting for executives or C-level or whatever it might be now if you have a standalone page. Okay cool. Google’s like got it. You have some decent content I’m going to factor that into my ranking but then also if you have that on your main menu or references on the homepage or maybe you write blog articles and you’re referring to that. Then that tells Google’s like wow they really do prioritise this page so this must be important for them and if this is a good site, I’m going to rank this a little bit higher for the users just because they are placing a heavy importance on that. So, it’s SEO is really all about giving well one great user experience and then giving Google the signals. And like on your business so that’s internal linking and the next is getting links from other websites now that has always been a ranking signal of Google and the premise that helped me understand this earlier. My career is it’s almost like. Ah, graduate research paper and how folks determine how successful a graduate research paper is or a thesis is how many other people reference that study if it was a great study other publications and magazines are going to be like oh check out this study that that James wrote. Cited here and here and here it’s very quality and then so Google took that into online version I was like well if other websites are calling out the great content or services or products that means it must provide a good user experience because again, it’s all about the user experience and they’re going to give that a little bit higher ranking.

18:58.80

Ben

And now that continued Google’s algorithm updated to help mitigate a ton of spam out there where people are just gaming the system that’s still a high-ranking factor. Is it number one I don’t think it is. It’s a top 3 I think at one point it was probably number one I believe it’s in the top 2 or 3 nothing lower than that and then so how you get about how you get some of those links for a small business directory sites are great. There are directory listings for every type of vertical some are broader. Some are more niche. Build up profiles. You’re going to get some traffic from these directory sites but those will be good. A lot of small businesses are part of other networking groups maybe chamber of commerce or other or even other businesses that you just refer and forth to each other maybe like you could call out. You could collaborate in some content or do. Trusted partners page or you could even do some guest blog posting where you write for other recruitment publications and then they can link back to you, but this is ah, an area that takes a while to build up and but is. Still very important to have.

20:08.11

ThinkinCircles

Um, and um on those links that are on these other these external sites is it. Do you need just to have ah the kind of the copy needs to be is your wwwww.thinkingcircles.com or could it be. You know the kind of it could be a keyword with the hyperlink did. Does that make a difference does Google know the difference between if it’s like it might say for instance, I’d know it recruitment and it’s going back to this kind of you know I mean something does that make a difference orchid does how does that all play out.

20:33.91

Ben

Um, yeah, yeah, it does make a difference because again like think of SEO is just a game of giving Google signals, so you want to tell Google like if you focus on it recruitment. And you wrote an article about that that should be the hyperlink text back to it and think about where you’re sending links to your site. Don’t always have it be the homepage if you want to rank higher for it recruitment and you wrote a blog post that’s on another website. Link directly to that page because that’s the page that you want to focus now. There is ah a halo effect of if you have a bunch of links to your homepage. Yes, that’s going to trickle down to your other pages as well. So, it’s not a lost cause but. Think of SEO is just always giving Google signals of what your business is all about and what type of value that you provide.

21:26.50

ThinkinCircles

Yeah, ah Ben those have been some absolutely kind of great tips for kind of small business out their stuff that people can put into place today tomorrow and kind of over the next kind of few weeks and kind of see some results hopefully over the next kind of few months um, managing expectations of course because none of this stuff happens kind of overnight.

21:37.85

Ben

Yeah, totally.

21:43.77

ThinkinCircles

Ben it’s been an absolute pleasure having you on the podcast today if anybody wants to kind of get in contact. We’ll obviously include all your details in in the show notes. So, anybody can kind of connect you with on LinkedIn and check out rise marketing but Ben for now. Thank you very much.

21:56.79

Ben

Sounds good. Thanks so much for having me, James.

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