The Marketing Rules Podcast In Writing: Peter Shafer

In recruitment marketing, we have data at our fingers tips but making sense of it and using it effectively is the tricky part.

00:02.34

ThinkinCircles

Welcome back everybody to The Marketing Rules Podcast. It is my pleasure to be joined by Peter Shafer. Peter, I asked you before we’ve started recording to how I would describe you and I think you know I think we settled on data strategists Data Collection Strategist Marketing data strategists. Something to do with data marketing and strategy it all seems to fit in in in your in your background and your expertise, but could you maybe describe your bill you’re about your background and yourself to our audience.

00:32.90

Peter Shafer

Absolutely and James it’s great to be with you. Thank you for the invitation.  my expertise really focuses in on 3 areas 1 is using data to make decisions whether they’re strategic or practical tactical decisions during you know day-to-day work. , the second is how to use data in a more public way I worked with the Gallup poll and the Harris poll where that data went into news stories and went into promotions and different things like that and then the third is really to ah to help people understand how to. Capture and really begin to harness that data. You know as it comes in because there’s so many new data sources that come out or that there’s new data that you’re exposed to and you’re trying to figure out how to piece it into what you’re already doing so I work with a lot of clients around that and helping them understand the implications of those ah of those data and what.

01:24.23

ThinkinCircles

And so, I mean this must be a golden age for someone in in your line of work. You know since the yeah since the advent of big data with the air quotes if anyone’s you know you know and everybody’s more focused now on data-driven decisions on.

01:24.23

Peter Shafer

It means to use those data.

01:33.82

Peter Shafer

Yes.

01:41.80

ThinkinCircles

I Know we’re going to talk a little around marketing and data-drain marketing. But you know this must be just you must be in your element write them in it because we got so much data at our fingertips.

01:50.33

Peter Shafer

You’re right, and I think it’s both.  I Think the golden age is a way a very good way to describe it. one thing that that does surprise me is just the continued you know accumulation of more and more and more data and I Think. In many ways while that’s exciting. It’s also very much overwhelming to somebody in marketing right now because there’s so many different data sources that they can pull on and the question becomes what’s the highest quality. What’s the best indicator for us to follow because even in so even just using 1 software Package. You could get multiple reads of data on the same topic and sometimes it’s vole metrics. Sometimes it’s you know qualitative data but it I think that the big challenge is just really getting comfortable with the idea that there is.

02:38.62

ThinkinCircles

Well, this is going to be amazing I mean is there such a thing as too much data, right? because we were swamp by on a daily basis, right? and I think it’s just I think and again we can touch on this is one of the things that I think a lot of you know, general businesses find and marketers find is that.

02:39.35

Peter Shafer

So much data. Oh, absolutely.

02:55.45

ThinkinCircles

You know we just don’t know where to start. There’s just so much data and then you know that’s one point and then the second point is well. What do I do with all that data. How do I put that into form that makes sense that from a marketeer’s perspective that generates return on investment that proves return on investment just to do something with it.

03:01.24

Peter Shafer

Right.

03:12.34

ThinkinCircles

So, I mean maybe that’s a good place to start is just you know you’ve got all this. There’s all this data out there. Where do we start? What? what? What? yeah.

03:19.34

Peter Shafer

Yeah, and its ah it’s an excellent question James and I think, you know a good starting point is just to really accept the premise that I have all this data at my disposal whether it’s data within my organization or data within another part of the organization that I can access to, but you really need to start with. Okay, what do I want to find out from the data. What is it that I that I need to either understand or, use that data to make a decision on and I think one of the things that I talk about a lot with clients is that. They expect when they get a data report or they get the data that there’s this big shiny bright yellow answer right in front of them and it doesn’t exist sometimes they have to piece it together and, you know so it becomes a puzzle that they work with and ah you know could be a Rubik’s cube. It could be a thousand-piece puzzle. But. It’s not as simple as here’s a data point. Go do what you must do.

04:16.30

ThinkinCircles

It and is done and is that is there a reason then that should businesses start looking at, you know, either is you know, bringing on someone like yourself or having someone in internally that can just manage this data or understands data because I think that’s the problem. 1 of the problems as well, right? you just.

04:27.98

Peter Shafer

Yeah, yeah, I think you’re absolutely, right? And that’s one of the recommendations that we make is that at least there is somebody in the organization that is the champion of the data that understands not only where it comes from and what’s available. But then also how to use it and they don’t necessarily have to be a quote unquote data scientist. They just must understand how these different pieces of data can work together and sometimes that’s a CEO type person but oftentimes you know in in organizations that, it’s just somebody who is keeping and taking care of the flows of data so that I can understand it. Or that we can understand it, but I think you’re right if 1 of the best practices that I’ve seen is that you appoint a champion who sits and that’s one of their jobs is to really focus in and home in on that data.

05:18.30

ThinkinCircles

What’s the job description look for like for some of that because again as a marketed my interest would be what can I I’m not that interested in I want to see how it could be creatively used right? What can I tease out that and instead of just looking at it as a set of numbers and saying.

05:31.31

Peter Shafer

Yep.

05:34.80

ThinkinCircles

Right? The numbers mean this this and this like ah like an accountant but creative with that. You know So how you know what that person looks like that.

05:36.70

Peter Shafer

It’s an excellent question James, and one of the things this is this is ah something that hasn’t really caught up yet and that is our own individual education around how to use the numbers is so far behind the vole of. Data that we get so when you ask that question about what type of person you know, even some of the people that coming out of MBA School have only been exposed to it probably about that much. It’s not you know so it’s still developing what I would say is you want to look for 3 personality types. One would be. Somebody who is what I call a data detective who likes to be able to work with the different information piece it together and come up with it and that might be somebody who’s got great ideation skills. It might be somebody who’s able to pick out but that detective ideas are one that that seems to resonate with people. The second is that the person should have at least some analytical backgrounds and be comfortable with speaking and writing and talking about what the numbers mean and you know I see this a lot. You know there’s a group of people that are you know in banking and in other industries where they have you know, just. Incredible amounts of data that know how to handle and that and they can be that those skills can be transferred over into other organizations somewhat easily so that analytical analyst type person. The third is somebody who is just hyper organized on things simply because they need to be able to prioritize and.

07:08.46

Peter Shafer

Be able to put these pieces together in ah in a more structured way I worked with a person several years ago in ah in one of the polling firms that I was with, and they were super diligent about being able to say okay this data goes here and this data goes here and that organization. Really helped our organization then use the data effectively both in terms of day to-day decisions but also in strategic direction this is where we think the market is headed. So, you know again, ah 1 of the things that that you know this is a fourth one I guess would be somebody that is. At least comfortable with uncertainty because at the outset of many of these projects even you know, even if you’re doing something that is a rigorous and structured project.  is that there is some uncertainty and you’ve got to be okay with that and not to jump to a conclusion before.

08:02.94

ThinkinCircles

I will it just occurred to me that obviously the majority audiences we’re talking to today are in the ah you’re all in the hr and recruitment space and, there are some nuances around data usage within that space obviously personal data. We’ve got.

08:03.15

Peter Shafer

We get to the before we get to the data itself.

08:20.93

Peter Shafer

Yes.

08:22.98

ThinkinCircles

Hang-ups from the from EU legislation GDPR as we call it over here. How does that affect your usage of data. Do we? How careful do we need to be, and I know this is more legal aspects but that must influence the datasets. You can use. You know if you can’t if you’re going to use so much of it.

08:27.28

Peter Shafer

Yep.

08:42.21

Peter Shafer

Yeah, it’s a brilliant question and I think it’s a struggle that is people have defaulted more to being overly cautious than to being you know, maybe riskier with the data. You know first is that I and this is a finding that I find interesting but not.

08:42.31

ThinkinCircles

It must affect the outcome right.

09:00.61

Peter Shafer

Surprising and that is that most people understand, and most employees understand as well that there is a numeric value that they can put on their data and that they are aware of their own rights privacy rights in this? The first thing you do when you’re working with this. Type of hr data is strip out and anonymize as much of the personal information as you can  and that is you know,  step one and it’s the biggest step  that helps legally and I think you know at least here in the United States  any of these quantifications become discoverable if there is an hr action down the road or if there’s some other you know issue that pops up. , the second is that in those groupings. , after stripping out that personal information. If. There’s anything in there that could be sensitive or ah, a data point that might be, leading down the path and I’ll yeah, I’ll use this example, if you have age as still a variable in that set once you’ve stripped out everything age could be. I mean that that could be a problem area, so you want to make sure that some of those hot button areas like age and gender and things like some of those demographics. You know you protect for as much as possible, and the third is.

10:19.87

Peter Shafer

If you do get into an area where it is a sensitive topic you limit the number of people who can access the data and you limit the number of people who can manipulate and work with the data and oftentimes that’s the simplest step because you can say okay, this is this is what we need to find out. You know, let’s say we’re trying to find out new. A salary range for a new position that we’re hiring. You know that the fewer the people that have access to that that data the better and usually it’s said OKAY, 1 person can go over here and do that, but you lock it down as much as possible. Those are the 3 areas that I’ve seen have been successful. But you’re right I mean you know more and more people are aware of how valuable and how much say they have and how their data is used.

11:07.69

ThinkinCircles

I’m just thinking of those of questions to want to ask you Peter as we as we go on online. So, I’ve got I’ve got I’ve got another one for you and again I’m trying to refer this back to some of the questions that we’ve been asked with some of our clients, and I know ah the audience will probably have these around quality of data and cleansing of data and. And how you? How you tackle that right? because, you know if you’re pulling data from multiple sources. How do your sanity check that you know you know how you know? does it need to be peer reviewed data does it need to come from multiple sources that equate together I don’t know you know how do we.

11:34.20

Peter Shafer

Yes.

11:43.45

ThinkinCircles

And do we do that.

11:44.30

Peter Shafer

Yeah, it’s ah it’s a good question and data hygiene is a big issue right now throughout almost every industry category I know specifically in the market research area. It. It is but, you just said something that that struck me and that is that. I am an advocate for, a casual peer review just to make sure that that what we’re asking and what we’re thinking about and how we’re asking or what we’re using the data for is at least tested or seen by somebody who is not involved directly in the project and that that.

12:18.47

Peter Shafer

Checkpoint that simple you know; hey this does meet the litmus test. Yeah, I’ve this might be observable in the public is usually a good step and I think people breeze by that or they go to the person who’s the closest to the project and ask the same thing but, you know it. The 1 thing I would say is this and the peer review part of it there. There is actually and I know that you all know this in academia a very rigorous process for that. and that’s not we’re not talking about that. We’re talking about just hey it on its surface does this. Appear what you do 1 thing and you mentioned it a second ago as well is that if you are looking to answer a bigger question. You may come. It may not necessarily reflect what is going on in the world right? this minute so you need to just account for that. There could be a surprise answer there or, there could be something that you see that is not necessarily in what would be in the normal course of business. For example, if you’re a staffing firm and you post a particular position and you see an overabundance of people applying for that and you start looking through the demographics and it becomes clear that. More women than men do are applying for this or there’s something along those lines is that that may you know that may trigger a different way to go or different decision-making process. So, you know if possible don’t start jumping to conclusions until you’ve had a chance to sort through some of the data. you know I see this happen quite frequently and yeah and I know you do James too is that here’s my hypothesis. Let me go out and find the data to support it versus here’s the data and let me build the hypothesis from what I see so.

14:02.78

ThinkinCircles

Yeah, yeah, exactly? Yeah, exactly a great point. Let let’s talk around what we were going to talk around which is around marketing data. Sorry I got a guy got completely taken away by ins you.

14:11.43

Peter Shafer

Ah, yes, no.

14:16.24

ThinkinCircles

So, year’s shedding light onto the how to effectively use data when building marketing campaigns and marketing strategies and I guess the first thing is you know again, come back to where we start but more around marketing data what you know what? what should we be? What should have been what. Data should we be looking for in the first place you know so.

14:33.66

Peter Shafer

Yeah, the great thing about all these new platforms and software packages James is many of them already have pre-built-in analytics packages with them so that you can look through and you know even just transactionally look through what is happening. So, the first step is just to make sure that you understand what those analytics are saying or what they’re providing you. You know? and I’ll use this example because it’s a simple one.  you know, click through rates where you do a post, and you click through and then there’s the next action and you look. You know that that is a helpful way to see from end to end. How. Ah, process might work and oftentimes you know, even though that might be a microcosm It gives you an idea of how the process is going to flow and almost all the marketing and data analytics packages have some type of ah you know rudimentary metrics like that which are helpful. It’s just a matter of tapping into them. The second though and this is a little bit more is that becoming familiar and okay with some of the terminology that use. So, for example, clickthrough rate which is always you know car those numbers sometimes are often surprisingly small but I you know. The more important part of that analytic is okay is there is there something that’s going once that clickthrough happens is there a next level action and I think that that so oftentimes we get focused on the number and not the next progression into that number. So, I would say for anybody that’s starting this out or really beginning to dive deeper into it.

16:08.44

Peter Shafer

Don’t be too surprised if you see smaller numbers. It’s okay, what you want to do is to be able to discern the difference between what that action is and what the next level behaviour is and that oftentimes is you know you just need to follow the data through the through the pipeline.

16:25.22

ThinkinCircles

And a lot of times in marketing. We have what I think I describe but I think a lot of people describe as vanity metrics as well, right? The things around you know the number of views you might be getting the number of clicks on something I know this is specific to social media, which is very, so you know very nice to what we’re discussing. But.

16:31.42

Peter Shafer

Yes.

16:42.86

ThinkinCircles

You know, do they do are they vanity metrics. Can they be useful you know because there’s not much. We can consistently glean from that or maybe there is maybe you can shed a bit of light and.

16:54.80

Peter Shafer

I you know it’s ah it’s ah it’s a good question and there there’s no correct answer to it number 1 is they’re always going to be vanity metrics simply because we must for job preservation if nothing else.

17:08.93

Peter Shafer

But in in marketing I Do think that some of the vanity metrics need to be refreshed on a regular basis because if you’re for example, if you’re using Net Promoter Score which is you know everybody in the you know seems to flock to that Score you know. That that oftentimes needs to be relooked at and refreshed and whatever the second is that you from my standpoint at least is that ah you just need to make certain that whatever vanity metric you have or whatever those metrics are is that they are clearly. Clearly explained and supported by the data because that is if you’re going to get in trouble. That’s where it’s going to wind up you know because you’re going to be out there with a number that just doesn’t seem right or you’re going to be. You know, too self-promoting with the number like you know 4 out of 5 X Do this.

17:49.73

ThinkinCircles

Yeah, yeah.

17:59.33

ThinkinCircles

So, yeah.

18:02.70

Peter Shafer

You know you just want to make sure that you’re really standing on thick ice with those numbers.

18:06.84

ThinkinCircles

That So that’s interesting. You bring up, net promoter scores but and then that’s ah, a formula That’s not that’s only now starting to be used a bit more within staffing and recruitment space and then I got the sense that maybe you weren’t.

18:17.88

Peter Shafer

Yep.

18:20.78

ThinkinCircles

Necessarily a fan maybe or it’s too. You know it’s too Broad doesn’t really give you much data. So yeah, so.

18:24.40

Peter Shafer

It’s yeah and that’s the that’s the real downside James is that is that it’s so broad and it’s so, ah, easily misinterpreted I guess for a lack of better way to put it or there’s a lot of weight that’s put on the Naps Score there’s some other questions that usually go into, ask you know that roll into that number. But you know again, when I work at Gallup, we came up with what was called the q 12 and everybody would always question well is it is it just 12 is it. You know and.

18:43.27

ThinkinCircles

Yeah.

18:55.49

Peter Shafer

And I think sometimes when you get into those s you know you can vanity metrics or those hyper you know, like 1 one off metrics. You run the danger of not having, a true score of where you are, and I could see.

19:01.20

ThinkinCircles

Yeah.

19:11.52

Peter Shafer

You know that that number if that becomes the Holy Grail or becomes the it that you know it. It does have an implication for the way you market the way you position yourself the way you brand yourself all those different types of things and so you know I’m not a big fan of it only because there’s so many more.

19:17.88

ThinkinCircles

Now.

19:30.70

ThinkinCircles

Yeah.

19:31.16

Peter Shafer

Elements to just that you know to the branding and marketing and positioning than just that 1 question.

19:37.49

ThinkinCircles

So, follow-up question then for anyone out there who is using Net Promoter Score looking to use a net promoter Score You know what? what we could do different. How could we you know how we could do this better than how could we get more from it. You know.

19:52.51

Peter Shafer

Yeah, I think 2 things number 1 is that when you see the score check it monthly or check it on a quarterly basis 1 but look at the numbers behind it that make that up. , and usually those are easily accessible. , and so you want to make sure that that you know you’re just seeing what’s behind the curtain versus just what’s in front of the curtain. , the second is that  I would say probably once every six months run a counter question to that Net Promoter Score to see if there is an app you know Ah, ah, something that. Might be moving in a different direction that the net promoter score is not picking up.  you know for example because the basis of the net promoter score is likelihood to recommend in in some businesses. It’s very difficult for, let’s say in the staffing group.

20:34.80

ThinkinCircles

Yeah.

20:46.11

Peter Shafer

In that consideration set for a particular position. So how could I recommend you go here, or you know so I think in 1 regard that you know it’s at least a baseline to work from but don’t make it the absolute and look at the numbers behind it and you know and work with it from there.

21:01.78

ThinkinCircles

Yeah, it seems to be you know like I said I think it so it seems to be very broad, and a catchall and I think it can be, misinterpreted to try and as ah as a complete representation of your business or even grandly down to a certain person when you.

21:18.80

Peter Shafer

Exactly.

21:18.98

ThinkinCircles

1 question is never going to be enough in those situations. Yeah, you know ah Peter I do you know what we’re going to have you back at some point because we can because we can. We could talk about this all day we haven’t really touched the side of what I wanted to what we were Guingona talk about but we you know what? well make it much more structured next time and we’ll come up with you know, but.

21:24.40

Peter Shafer

Oh, awesome.

21:35.50

Peter Shafer

Excellent, okay.

21:38.83

ThinkinCircles

But in in all honesty I think that you got ah you know a huge knowledge around this space, and I think a lot of a lot of ah ideas there that you know the audience will really tune into, so we’ll figure out another day for you to come back and we’ll ah we’ll tackle. We might see if we can specifically look at the more around a recruitment and staffing space.

21:47.99

Peter Shafer

Awesome.

21:58.20

ThinkinCircles

We will obviously include all your details in the show notes. So, if anybody wants to reach out and get in content, they can, but for now, Peter Shafer, thank you very much.

22:03.93

Peter Shafer

Terrific, James. Thank you very much, great to see you.