The Marketing Rules Podcast in Writing: Serge Boudreau

00:01.91

ThinkinCircles

Welcome back everybody to The Marketing Rules Podcast. It’s my pleasure to welcome on board Serge Boudreau. Serge, the man, the legend. Thank you for joining me today. Now, you know I know, I follow your podcast and I follow you and Shelly’s work. However, for the people out there in Europe and UK who probably might not be as familiar with your work and background. Can you give us a little bit of history of how you started, and how you got to where you are today.

00:33.61

Serge Boudreau

James, thank you so much for having me! I thought I was internationally known, I thought I was internationally famous. But I think this is a good opportunity to give you a brief introduction. I am the vice president of business development and partnerships at a company called Career Beacon here in Canada. I am also the host of The Recruitment Flex. Number one HR podcast in Canada, we have around 260 episodes, been going on for 4 years. I’ve been in this space for around 20 years, both as a practitioner also as a leader but I’ve also spent a lot of time on the other side of the ledger, which is working with companies like Indeed and Workopolis, which was very famous here in Canada.

01:28.42

ThinkinCircles

Um, that’s quite a background ah, to be honest, you I mean this? ah you know you dropped a couple of big names in there which is ah which is good. Um, and yeah and you know what it was like before we get into the dog to what was it that you.  got you into podcasting because I get fascinated by meeting other podcasters, right? and I always wonder what? Why is it what that drove you into that you know in in there in the first place.

01:53.59

Serge Boudreau

Well to be simple. It was. We started a podcast in May Twenty so think about when the pandemic hit in March um, I am a very social person I like to talk a lot I found that all my public speaking or anything that I was doing was had gone away. I knew nothing about podcasting, but I did listen to 1 podcast in the industry that really inspired me and that was Chad and cheese. Then after that I found podcasts like recruiting future which I know is very popular in the U K and across Europe. But reality, I wanted to figure out if I can do it and reading a lot on it before is like I think the average podcaster goes 6 episodes. Um, and I’m like I am going to beat that. And the first year we record around 30 and then start growing a little bit of an audience the second year was a little bit more than 30 years really when we saw a huge uptake and I’ve been addicted to podcasting ever since when did you start your podcast, James.

02:55.15

ThinkinCircles

Ah, started in late 2019 so just before the ah the pandemic hit so about six months or so 6 or four or six months before pandemic hit. Um, um, we’re on I think episode 130 or something like that. I mean, you’ve got a great work ethic and I know you guys are incredibly regular What I’ve found generally and ah this diff episode is not about recruit and podcasting right? This is we are going to talk about, but I’ve found that um just the just sheer workload is just getting the guest and it’s everything outside of the actual recording which is the bit that is that takes the effort, right? and I think most podcasters agree on it is this you know arranging it will do need all the admin right for podcasting is what takes time.

03:38.30

Serge Boudreau

That is by far the biggest challenge people starting a podcast. Don’t realize how much work there is behind it and as you get better. It gets a little bit more systemized, and you have a playbook, and you have contractors to help you out. But I’ve gotten. Down to what I think is an art as far as just I know exactly how long each episode is going to take me to edit and record and then release but it is a lot of works. But I tell you there’s nothing. That’s really been as good for my career as podcasting because the ability to talk to people that. Really, I wouldn’t have an opportunity, and this is a great way to bring them on really pick their brand get an idea of what’s going on in the industry. It’s given me ah a lot of knowledge to tell you the truth.

04:25.96

ThinkinCircles

And it’s a good way to just meet some interesting people, right? That’s all I was fine you know I mean it’s just a great way to just get to get under the skin of some real clever but clever people clever. It’s smart and I am an I ever will be basically. Um so.

04:28.30

Serge Boudreau

A hundred percent. Yeah, exactly.

04:41.20

ThinkinCircles

What we’re going to talk around a little bit today is we’re ah we’re both ah in the marketing space and the recruited marketing space. So, it would be I thought it would be a good idea to spend a few kinds of the next 20 minutes to half hour having a chat around some of the differences between the territories that we pretty much sit in. I’m going to lump all of Canada and North America all together. So, you those guys you’re that continent I’m going to take on Ku and Europe pretty much and it’d be good if we can just like explore the differences. What we do the same what we can learn from each other the stuff that we aren’t doing as well and stuff that we should be doing as well. Right? So, I think we would be good if we start right? beginning on the understanding of what recruitment marketing is when it comes to ah the Ta space and when it comes to ah you know people just knowing what they’re asking for and knowing what they want it to do right. I’m going to let you kick off with the understanding and then I’ll ship in for the for UK in Europe.

05:40.17

Serge Boudreau

Yeah, recruitment marketing is something that is not in a lot of practitioners vocabulary is still something new across the I think across the world, right? Ah recruitment marketing is all always happened. But. For us to name it and have it as a function I would say it’s the last ten to fifteen years where we’ve seen ah a really big difference and I think the difference has come because of the talent scarcity really the mismatch of the labour market has caused a lot of companies to consider. Hey just posting a job ad my job description on a job board randomly and getting hundreds of applicants those days are gone. You must be able to differentiate your company and show why this is the best place to work and I think recruitment marketing compared to say marketing is a little bit different. I think in marketing the goal is to sell as many widgets as possible as the goal in recruitment marketing is to pinpoint the right number of widgets, so you’re not overwhelmed with candidates that are not qualified. So, it’s a little bit more getting candidates to opt out then. In regular marketing is getting everyone to opt in right and this can be done through your message your channels very similar to a regular marketing practice of your distribution channels What your brand is how you’re going to market. But again, there’s a little bit of a difference and there’s not a lot of practitioners in recruitment marketing that came from marketing is my experience. A lot of practitioners in recruitment marketing are coming from the recruiter side I don’t know if you’ve seen that in your up in the U k.

07:14.77

ThinkinCircles

Yeah, we yeah, we’ve seen a little bit of that I think I know recruitment generally whether it’s we where we’re recruitment or staffing agency or whether you’re doing talent acquisition in-house. Most people describe it as you fall into it right? It’s not necessarily something you’re working towards. Think that there’s a little bit of recruiter marketing around and when we talk about recruit marketing, I’m bundling in employ branding and things in there as well right? and we were just yeah with yeah so that is it’s something that I don’t think anyone sets out probably to get into but and I don’t think over here. There are 1 or 2 practitioners from who have come from actual been actual recruiters. But at most come in who’ve maybe become um, have got like marketing degrees, and then moved into the into this space or where marketers were within an industry that is being recruited into where they’ve have had a contact and then moved into the theta space or moved into the recruitment agency. So, I think there’s more of I guess I’m going to put you know in the vertical market actual marketeers doing recruiter marketing in the Ku as opposed to recruiters who have moved into recruiter marketing. Um, and as for the understanding of what it is I think we’re even a bit we’re even slower behind you guys I think only probably in the last 5 years Is it really a thing I mean I’ve been doing this for you know over 10 years, but I think only now is it starting to become understood with ah the client base right? that this is something that can. Sit on top of just basically just of just sticking your jobs on a job board. There’s way more to it than that these days and only now is that you know is it coming and it’s starting to I guess go down the food chain of the size of businesses as well. So smaller businesses are now real understanding and again, but I don’t know if that’s the same for you guys that you’re seeing this has always been the purview of the big businesses to do this but now much more the Sem sized businesses is looking at doing more of this activity.

09:17.57

Serge Boudreau

Yeah, we’re seeing the same I think what we’re seeing is ah to your earlier point. We’re seeing a lot more marketers become recruitment marketers. But how it started was a lot of recruiters trying to muddle their way around and trying to figure it out. But yeah, to your point, we are seeing mid and smaller size companies really see the impact of recruitment marketing and what it means and what channels they should be going as everyone was just used to. Okay there’s a local job board that I can get candidates from I’m just going to put my plain old job description. They’ve realized that hey maybe I’m not that good. At this copywriting thing and they’re looking at external firms to help them, especially if they’re smaller medium size because the need is probably bigger for a mid to small size than it is for a larger company because a larger company. You’d think about just. Career pages of the largest companies here in in Canada say like a Scotia bank which is a very large bank here. They get thousands and thousands if not millions of visits to their career site but think about that small company. That’s maybe competing for the very same talent. They’re just not getting that natural attraction right? So, they must figure out a way to put themselves out there and really share their message, so people do consider them because they’re just not top of mind. So yeah, you’re right? We’re seeing a lot more of it and we’re seeing it even to companies with. Like start-ups. We’re starting tech start-ups are really focusing on employment branding understanding and recruitment marketing in general understanding that hey we got to compete against that telling against Google Meta or whatever the case is.

10:53.61

ThinkinCircles

Yeah, and I’m wondering if um if there’s a pull factor at both ends right? So, you’ve got the larger businesses that they’ve already got brand, and people are always going to want to have that on their on their on their cv also with the ah with the start-ups. They’re cool. They’re hip. They’re trendy. And people do want to work in that space because you’ve got the ah you’ve got the option to fly with them when they grow. It’s those people in the middle have been stuck there that arena’ aren’t the cool trendy start-ups aren’t they aren’t the big you know, financial brands. For instance, it’s the bits that stuck in the middle that require this more because they’ve the ones who are having the talent sucked out of them from either end I guess right because they’re just they they’re in a in the no man’s land a recruitment marketing. No man’s land. Basically, at that point. Um, yeah, so um.

11:38.95

Serge Boudreau

Um, yeah know what I agree I agree completely.

11:46.31

ThinkinCircles

And what about ah you know, ah, that’s touching on the adoption of this and bringing this in, but it would be good to just to think about you know over here I think you know the pandemic probably did recruit a marketing a world of good in the fact that a lot of people within remote, so you had to change a playbook.

11:50.21

Serge Boudreau

Yeah.

12:05.53

ThinkinCircles

Right? And how you were going to get in front of these guys. It wasn’t just ah, how you didn’t you could know you didn’t have too necessarily be local anymore. You could spread your net a lot wider which meant you had to think slightly more strategically, so I think adoption then ah, took off and with a slight.

12:13.64

Serge Boudreau

Um.

12:23.20

ThinkinCircles

Yeah, better understanding but and a change of direction on how to do it better I don’t know if that was something that you guys saw as well.

12:29.66

Serge Boudreau

Yeah, we saw the same. Ah, we saw the pandemic really change how people recruited how they went to market and how they looked at talent in general right? You think about a company that was used to competing against a company across the street and now you’re competing against company across the world. So, you’re messaging needs to change. But I’ll be completely frank I expected to for it to continue and we’ve seen a drawback in the last year of those companies that were really going for talent across the world or even in different markets locally that they’re drawing back to their local market and local talent. And I think that’s a shame James I think it’s a shame because a lot of companies if you think about how many people want to work remotely and how skilled and qualified. There is why limit yourself to just that local area. Sometimes it’s just like a postal code of. Instead of having a pool of millions. You have a pool of five hundred a thousand people in total what a disadvantage, but we did see that during the pandemic, but it’s really drawn back in the last I would say last six months to a year we’re starting to see just like overall remote job postings. I think here in Canada is down to 6 or 7% and that’s peak was around 30% so we’re seeing   come back. How do I track that local talent. How do we get people to be interested to come into the office. Which was not a consideration during the start of the pandemic or throughout the course of the pandemic. Really.

13:55.45

ThinkinCircles

And is that just basic is that basically because obviously business owners and business leaders are now more fixated on people back in the office. There are these concerns Around. There are trust issues. There’s you know, effectiveness issues. They want people back in in there so they can Monitor. Everybody. And physically see that people are doing the work and that whole ah holiday period of remote holiday period is now fading away is it is it that mentality or is it something different.

14:27.35

Serge Boudreau

I would say it’s part of that mentality I think it’s quite complicated right? I think one of the driving factors to be completely and this might sound like a conspiracy theory. But I think one of the things that’s driving. It is commercial real estate I think commercial real estate in the city that I’m in. Um. Is quite a driving city but downtown vacancy rates for office towers is over fifty so I think a lot of business are getting a lot of pressure to bring their people in I do think what you mention is the reality as well. There’s a lot of CEOs that in generally if you think about. The age in um, where CEOs came from There are usually um boomers that are a little bit. They’ve always worked at an office, and this was such a big shift for them. And they do light the impact of when they walk in and going into their office. Everyone looks at them. They feel a sense of control that is hard to do remotely I think remote was a great equalizer when it came to a lot of things skill really shown right? It wasn’t the power dynamic shifted a little bit. But there’s way more comfort with people working in the office with CEOs right now. It’s going to be interesting because if you think about um the leaders or the people who have the money right? The people who are driving the decisions they’re generally in their late fifty s or they’re either boomers or late generation X. And, now we’re starting to see the shift of millennials taking over leadership positions I don’t know if it’s going to shift back. Um, that’s the interesting thing I think the next five to 10 years. We’re seeing a lot of highly skilled people really push back of going back in the office full time. But there’s really no choice for a lot of these companies and as the dynamic to power shift. We might see that change I don’t know it’s going to be an interesting 10 years, but I do think commercial real estate and then just the comfort level of doing something for 30 years of your career then it’s disrupted then you must go back. I can see that being a challenge for a lot of CEOs and executives.

16:33.49

ThinkinCircles

It’s a little similar here I think I think there are larger businesses downsizing. You know I think you know in London canary wharf. You know it’s pretty much empty most of the time now and I think some of those some of those bigger businesses and bigger banks are moving offices because they simply just don’t need the space anymore. Because ah, there’s a big push in the up for people to work four-day weeks there’s a big push to continue with the remote working I think it’s you know, just from my um, diversity in equity and accessibility point of view that it makes it just easier to for people to work that way. I am getting certain demographics of the ah of the workforce back into back into work. You know working moms etc. You know those kinds of things. There are big pushes ran out. So, I think it’s a bit more I was going to say liberal with a small l right over here when it comes to that   working environment. So it’s interesting that you there’s a real push so I don’t know the figures the figures off the head and this most of this is anecdotal from our client, but I feels like there’s a bit of a shift over here towards you know a much more flexible working I think that’s how it’s going here. Um, which again when it comes to. Marketing your roles and marketing your business and your employ branding is a gold mine, right? You know its’s perfect is what people want people want to have the option if they’re going for this job to be able to you know work two days at home. Maybe we’ only work four days a week that thing finish and work between   so school hours and those kinds of things all that stuff is now on the table and makes it a way easier to sell that vacancies and build out your and sell your company culture because if that’s what it is right.

18:11.83

Serge Boudreau

Oh, imagine the competitive advantage there is especially with the groups that you mention as well as far as accessibility. How much easier it is and it’s a workforce that’s been under underrepresented here in North America and Canada and the us I’m sure it’s the same in Europe is. Like this was talking about the great equalizer. This was a great equalizer for them as well and the other group that had a big impact and I think we’re seeing flexibility is women and women in the workforce and unfortunately women are still um, still carried the biggest burden when it comes to raising children. So ah, the ability for a flexible schedule and going into work when it’s not convenient but in in a way that they can work around the rest of childcare pickup. All those things anyways in Canada we saw a big drop off women in the workforce during the pandemic and we’re starting to see that shift. Again, with a lot more women coming back to the workforce because of the enhanced flexibility. So, if you’re an organization that is really looking at ah looking at all talent pools, right? like in the past we had maybe 2 3 talent pools that we all aggressively went after but with talent scarcity and just the. Overall, how we look at the labour market is like how we can get more women back in the workforce how we can get people with disabilities. How can we focus on diversity equity inclusion and even here in Canada. There’s been a big focus on getting people with criminal records back to work. This is all part of recruitment marketing, right? so.

19:43.35

ThinkinCircles

Yeah, exactly.

19:45.87

Serge Boudreau

I completely agree but I think the biggest thing is companies that offer flexibility will be the winners in the coming 1020 years.

19:54.97

ThinkinCircles

Yeah, I completely agree. Um and that takes us nicely into strategy and how the and how recruit marketing strategy is ah rolled out on both sides of the of the pond we know we’ve touched on that diversity and equity and accessibility, and those themes are now playing apart. Over here. If you know it’s continually the biggest theme as is getting people with criminal records and people may have, been you know had ah a tougher upbringing getting those kinds of ah those demographics. Onto the workforce and untapped again as the that female population as well. But when it comes to the strategy on how you go about it. How you roll out your recruit marketing your employer brand your eve. Um. You know without we can. We can just it him to hit the highlights. We don’t need to go too deep there you know is there something that you think that is being done well over in in Canada when it comes to the distress year around recruit marketing.

20:55.72

Serge Boudreau

Well, I want to flip it around I think there’s something that Europe and UK does a lot better than Canada and the us and I think that is career sites if you look at career sites and the experience of a candidate applying in Canada in the us is dramatically better in Europe.

21:03.90

ThinkinCircles

Um, now. Okay, okay.

21:14.72

Serge Boudreau

Ah, just going try ahead. Ah Bos Van da hat to on my ah on my podcast and he’s in Dutch and he’s very involved in career sites and I had the opportunity just to really dig in I didn’t understand language.

21:26.12

ThinkinCircles

Um, yeah.

21:28.50

Serge Boudreau

In most countries and I think that’s a unique player in Europe that we don’t have in Canada and North America as much. Obviously, there’s a French language but the biggest thing that I notice is in Canada around 95% of sites. You need to register before you start applying and the drop off rate on that is tremendous. It’s huge. As in Europe is completely flipped around where it’s maybe 5 % that you do need to register and the reason, I point this out is you can have the best messaging you can have the most attractive brand. But if a can it comes to apply and it’s a really pain in the ass process to apply. They start thinking about your company after they’re putting these types of roadblocks in the application process imagine working there. It’s probably way worse in amount of bureaucracy and everything that you must go through so it’s a big deterrent. So, I want to call out how you guys do that way better than North America um 1 thing in if we look at strategy and how we do channel distribution in North America compared to Europe and I would say us is way more advanced than most of the other parts of the world um have quite an active economy just if you look at how a vehement they are overall. They’re going to do a lot more but 1 of the things that they’ve really taken advantage of and I’m shocked that the rest of the world hasn’t is programmatic advertising if you think about programmatic advertising and the recruit in just a regular marketing space.

23:00.89

Serge Boudreau

It’s been 9098 around maybe a little bit maybe 2000 recruitment marketing programmatic advertising has really been since um I would say 2015 and the adoption in the us has been quite high with companies like upcast Jovi Pando logic. As in Canada it’s been low but part of the issue in Canada is there’s only 1 player when it comes to say job boards or job distribution. That’s indeed so programmatic doesn’t work as well. I was shocked to see that Europe there’s. Almost no adoption and if you think about efficiencies and the ability to get to the right candidates programmatic is probably the most cost-effective way of doing it.

23:42.86

ThinkinCircles

Yeah, it’s one of these things that just doesn’t come up in conversation I don’t think, and I think there’s possibly and of a couple of reasons one the market if we’re talking around advertising and job boards. It’s fragmented right? There are literally thousands upon thousands of boards and places you could potentially.

23:56.78

Serge Boudreau

Um, yes.

24:02.42

ThinkinCircles

Ah, whether it’s through affiliate marketing and there’s so many places where you could have your message. Um, and I don’t think there’s one ah that I can think of there’s one good tool that can manage all that right? you know So I think it’s sometimes it’s just easier to go direct. Basically.

24:05.70

Serge Boudreau

Will.

24:21.90

ThinkinCircles

Then it is necessarily just you know to then to try and figure out everywhere. You should be and do put the legwork in and settle that up. Um, ah, within the   staffing agency space and the and the Ta space over here is just you know.

24:24.89

Serge Boudreau

Yeah.

24:39.46

ThinkinCircles

Programmatic Average is never just a conversation which is which is which is which is strange right? and like I guess because you know because usually, I think it’s because it’s so niche right? You’re so targeted that I don’t think it comes up when it’s a slightly broader you know broader audiences, you’re after I think that that’s when programmatic probably works its best, but you know.

24:40.32

Serge Boudreau

Who.

24:50.39

Serge Boudreau

Um, yeah.

24:58.79

ThinkinCircles

If you are literally looking for a certain role to fill a certain role a certain engineer or something like that. There’s probably you know there’s a niche job ball for it over there. You may as well just go just go straight directly to them right and use that as your job board of choice. Um, yeah, which is ah but it’s an and it’s an interesting, an interesting point.

25:08.30

Serge Boudreau

Um, yeah.

25:10.83

Serge Boudreau

Boom.

25:18.54

ThinkinCircles

And when it comes to career sites, I think ah there was the whole candidate journey conversation blew up probably about ten years ago and there were lots of experts on how to do that and I think that really hit home at that point where you want to try and make the application process as easy as possible. You know that’s when this you know the apply with LinkedIn button.   came out of nowhere and was on everything basically at that point and that has, and that philosophy has just stuck right? You don’t want to put up barriers and um, you know a lot a lot of businesses now do this whole like 3- or 4-part application process where you get the key information. You know off the applicant first.

25:39.30

Serge Boudreau

Um, yeah.

25:57.45

ThinkinCircles

And then take them on that journey for filling out the rest of their profile. Um which they can then pick up. But yeah, I think over here. We’re much around to give us give us some details, right? because what we want too then do is contact you back right? Give us all that So here we can just then email you we can just go to come through Blast you with emails right.

26:13.60

Serge Boudreau

Um, it.

26:17.12

ThinkinCircles

On our latest jobs. You know that whole registered to apply thing I think just fell away because it was just seen it was seen quite quickly as just that real barrier to getting people to apply and so that’s dead in the water I think over here.

26:28.48

Serge Boudreau

Yeah, I was curious too. If g japer had an impact on the ability to register to apply and gather all that information because obviously it’s you just keeping data and keeping user data is quite different. In Europe wit compared to North America and that’s the other factor too when they talk about technology and technology that we’re leveraging um I heard someone from Silicon Valley say that japer was the great equalizer for Europe right? It gave the opportunity for companies in Europe to catch up with what’s happening in the Us.

26:47.32

ThinkinCircles

Yeah.

27:05.63

Serge Boudreau

I like I’m not sure right like I don’t know enough but does that have an impact because that’s a big difference between North America and Europe right now is exactly that legislation or that that plan.

27:19.11

ThinkinCircles

It was interesting GDPR like was everywhere for that that couple of years running into it. Um, and it was seen as ah as a real chore of an exercise to try and bring everybody to make sure everybody was compliant. Um, but like a lot of things. Ah probably.

27:27.76

Serge Boudreau

There.

27:36.87

ThinkinCircles

Probably not as more so in the euk than it is in Europe. There’s never any way to enforce a lot of that anyway, right? So, the enforcing of it isn’t anywhere unless you and because the enforcers of these of this legislation only usually go after the big names, right? So, the smaller small businesses.

27:51.51

Serge Boudreau

Yeah.

27:55.60

ThinkinCircles

So most in most cases is literally you just must prove that you’re doing your best Basically in those situations you don’t necessarily have to do everything by the book. Um, and I think most people what they did is there’s ah, there’s a statement when you’re handing over your data to say Yeah, I agree for this to be used.

27:59.50

Serge Boudreau

Yeah, no care.

28:13.94

Serge Boudreau

Um.

28:14.17

ThinkinCircles

I Don’t want it for marketing. But I do agree for you to use this to for this. Some people went to extreme lengths and had literally reams of Tick boxes say yes, yes, no, no yes, yes for these kinds of ah for these things. Um, but I think that’s quickly fallen by say but a wayside and just ah, there’s just a simple statement on most science when you’re handing over you do that? Yes, you can use it to contact me about vacancies. Or they like or don’t apply for the vacancy, right? That’s the that’s it. They’ve just taken that taken out attitude to it. Most people will just hit that hit that box. Um, and rarely I’ve ever heard of anyone asking for their details to be removed and will hand it over all their information back I Just I Just don’t think it.

28:36.45

Serge Boudreau

Yeah, anything.

28:52.80

ThinkinCircles

And of happens it might happen in other industries but not in in the recruitment space. Is it. You know because you can’t get away from it. You got to hand over your details, right? Um, so you can’t you. Ah, there’s nothing. You can go to do about it. So, I think it was the chore. But it’s one of those things that quickly dropped off the drop off the map. We do it and.

28:59.11

Serge Boudreau

Yeah.

29:10.29

Serge Boudreau

Well, I’m glad you gave me that perspective because I always thought that was rule with an iron fist that if you cross anything you were in deep trouble, and it goes to like as.

29:10.43

ThinkinCircles

Don’t really worry about it too much anymore.

29:24.28

Serge Boudreau

We’re talking it talks a little bit about the cultural difference when we talk about register to apply or anything. It’s just it’s a little bit different in how we share our info and I think it’s different between Canada and the Us as well. But. Do you find there when it comes to cultural difference in recruiting in in North America and the us so like to give you an idea even the us and Canada is so different so in the us you really must focus on make more money grow your career It’s very focused on. Status, right? As in Canada it’s like great place to work. You’ll be able to pick up your kids at work at school on time. A lot of flexibility like it’s more work life balance and I’m curious in Europe are you seeing difference between each country because like I look at Ku from and. External perspective and I see it a little bit different than maybe Spain and other countries as Ku is more closely aligned to the us when it comes to work ethic and just the overall thought of work is there. Do you find a big cultural difference in in your messaging how you approach candidates.

30:24.51

ThinkinCircles

Um, yeah, yeah, yeah.

30:33.86

Serge Boudreau

Ah, between all these different areas.

30:36.61

ThinkinCircles

Yeah, I mean there are ah some subtle and not so subtle differences between those markets on the way that you try to find cultural fit for your workforce and your potential workforce. Um. I think from the u k I think we’re probably a little bit different from the Us and I think there’s much more. Um, there’s much more a focus on flexible working, right? and that and the benefits of working and um than they then there ever were ah that whole ethos around. You know.

30:59.36

Serge Boudreau

Clamp.

31:08.29

ThinkinCircles

Get your you’re going to be in this job. Get your promotion make more money I think that’s nowhere near as important as it used to be because you know the benefit of working at this business means you’ve got what this these working hours to do that thing, I think there’s I think you know that’s similar in in for instance in the Netherlands you know, but they’ve.

31:13.65

Serge Boudreau

Okay.

31:28.10

ThinkinCircles

has been a little bit ahead of the curve than we have when it comes to you know work life balance. You know that’s been one of their big things. Um the differences in some of the other parts of Europe you know is it the legislation has dumbed down some of that and um, unionization.

31:45.73

Serge Boudreau

Yeah.

31:47.53

ThinkinCircles

 has doesn’t comes into play so you look at the likes of France where it’s highly unionized. You know that you know, um, when you’re working in that space. Ah it there’s a different mentality in a different way. You go out to the to the market. Um, so yeah, so there are   subtle differences. I mean I can’t speak for it. I don’t know all the different how each   I don’t always like in Poland for instance, something like that. But I know we are our neighbours. You know there’s these scuttle differences and, but it’s driven by internal factors right by unions I just culture. You know, ah the economy. You know if you look at Germany and the economy isn’t greatly at a minute.

32:11.79

Serge Boudreau

Um, yeah.

32:26.72

ThinkinCircles

So, you know people are just wanting to want a job necessarily the best job, right? So, I think there’s that mentality at moment.

32:34.99

Serge Boudreau

Unions is a very interesting point because there’s a mixture here in Canada and the us as you see countries like France obviously heavily unionized but is. Are unions attractive to job seekers overall in these countries is it if I’m in. Um if I’m in France as a job seeker would I prefer working for a union company or not a. Hearing candidates to make sure right? A lot of people do not want to work for a union as I don’t see the same in Europe but again, I’m judging from afar.

33:05.49

ThinkinCircles

Um, ah, will in in France because the unions hold so much power. Ah then you probably do want to be part of the allied nations, and you know the fact that that all the unions are joined up as well, right? There’s an ah they it’s quiet. You know it’s.

33:13.14

Serge Boudreau

Um, yeah.

33:16.70

Serge Boudreau

We.

33:21.42

ThinkinCircles

You can’t necessarily just put on an ah general strike but when one union goes on strike then the other ones are probably not too far behind um, and interesting I wouldn’t have normally said it was like that in the Ku would ah but there’s industries that are highly unionized and I think there is something in the pull factor. And the recruitment factor of being part of that larger group whether you are in healthcare whether young education in the frontline services. Those kinds of things are always those are things that usually are highly unionized, right? There are other unions for general workers and things like that. But I don’t think the general populace aren’t part of that.

33:51.00

Serge Boudreau

Move.

33:58.83

ThinkinCircles

Ah, you know that that thing, but I mean you have probably seen in the news that you know we’ve had strikes for the last couple of years with our healthcare workers. Our transport workers. Um, and there has been a knock- on effect that you know it started a slight ripple that one went one when started to strike then and the others started to.

34:04.49

Serge Boudreau

Um.

34:16.87

ThinkinCircles

Start to strike as well. But on the flip side if you were looking to get into healthcare at the minute would you want to because of all the issues that are going on if you want to, you’re just coming at a college, and you want to become a nurse and you were seeing that it’s Happening. You might go Well Actually it’s a pretty volatile industry. Probably not one that I necessarily want to go into. Don’t get paid a huge amount as because that’s what they’re striking around. So, I think um, it’s probably having a slightly counter ah counter effect to instead of drawing people in because your part of the union potentially pushing people away because it’s you know you? you know you’re going into a very tough job low pay. Um.

34:38.30

Serge Boudreau

Here.

34:56.16

ThinkinCircles

And potentially you’re going to have to strike to get what you did to get what you deserve. So, I’m wondering if there’s a push factor you know instead of a pull factor.

35:02.44

Serge Boudreau

Well, I think what it created is a little bit of a different market as well. If you think about going into nursing a lot of nurses or new to the feel, go work for companies that you travel right? So, a travel nurse you think about you’re going in different markets at different time. The. Pay is completely different. So obviously if you’re young and flexible. Yeah, you’re going to do that. Not even bough Ter about unions right here in candida anyways, I don’t know it might be different in and Europe and the Ku but we’re seeing a whole new subset of workers that are independent.

35:28.88

ThinkinCircles

Are.

35:40.30

Serge Boudreau

And we talk about like how the world will work has changed in the last couple of years I think that’s the biggest one is like the gig economy and the gig I’m going to give it a broad, so these are contractors but exactly to that point of: if I’m coming into a sector and it’s very challenging, low pay union strife all these things like what are my options. Yeah, I’ll travel to Canada or travel to Australia be a nurse for a year make double the amount of money I have that flexibility. So, I think the next five to 10 years is going to be interesting how the division of labour goes right? A lot of people want to work for themselves, and I think that’s like honestly, I think that’s going to be the norm in 20 years from now that we’re going to see people being contractors a lot more than just that security of working for an employer because you think about our parents like my dad worked for the same company for 3040 years I believe so that’s just not the norm anymore. That’s not the expectation so people are just thinking of work in a different way. So, when we talk about attracting people. Ah. There are ways that we can do it now that we couldn’t it’s opened a whole new economy a whole new way of working.

36:51.95

ThinkinCircles

Yeah, yeah, it amazes me why some businesses never have ah, adopted that star like I know when we reach out to businesses who are saying look. We’re advertising this this this row. It’s like well have you considered doing it instead of it being a permanent full-time role. What about splitting it what about doing a bit more with it. Yeah, I mean you know, opening yourself up to a but you know a bigger candidate base basically instead of just pinning yourself down because that can be something of that that that word full-time and permanent might be just you know whether it was you know you know a fixed term contract or something like that. Roles that would never normally have been thought of like that right? where but yeah, I think we’re I think would be interesting and see how that how that how that works out. Yeah, and that influence of the gig economy on the wider workforce would be interesting and I think the businesses that. Do go down that route are probably going to find themselves getting way better quality and effective candidates and they probably would have if they were just holding themselves back. Um, and it’s Interesting. We talk around money and things that because I wanted to finish off on talking around investment in recruiter marketing because. What have we seen over the last couple of years that as the understanding has ah got better as the adoption has got better investment has   grown as well where people realizing right? Well, we need to we can We want to do all this, but we want to put some money into its’re going to put budget behind it as Well. So, with that might include we’re going to have someone internally working as we’re going to outsource this to a business-like like think in circles or whatever you know, have you seen the just an increase in investment and money being put into that space. So

38:35.67

Serge Boudreau

Um, ah hundred percent I think we have seen I think that’s been the most interesting thing in this space in the last couple of years it’s just well I would last five years is the investment and it’s investments across every step of the way, right? like if we talk about recruitment and marketing. There’s. Five six different levers and if you think about employment brand and companies are taking it seriously because they know what the impact is channel distribution how you’re spending money how you’re going to the market. We’ve seen a big lift leveraging recruitment marketing tools as well. Which wasn’t really a thing. Five years ago, here we’re starting to see large investments. We’re seeing what companies in the recruitment marketing space ah getting bought like candidate id in the u k is the perfect example of a company that is exactly in recruitment marketing. So, to your point, I would say a lot of companies that I’ve worked with that had almost no budget or their recruitment marketing budget was a hundred percent just job board spend as we’re starting to see budgets spread across multiple channels. And both in tools but also where your ads and how you appear but also really um, I would say typical marketing things like how your copy looks all those things there never used to be any type of investment and we’re starting to see everyone up their game because they have to it’s Its force right? It’s there’s no choice in this labour market that if you’re not trying to stand out. You’re just going to be left behind and the cost of not having those roles filled a lot of business of realizes is a lot higher than spending money in recruitment marketing and getting the right talent for your roles.

40:16.30

ThinkinCircles

So, ah on that point interesting enough over here What we’ve seen ah that the spend increase is by recruitment agencies and starving agencies. They were the first ones to really start to spend a lot more money on recruiter marketing as opposed to the clients that they’re working for you know who could be struggling obviously to find roles who are then using recruitment agencies to them. But the agencies have got their own. We’ve seen agencies of all variant size. Very small have their own internal recruitment marketeers, right? And it’s now a space that is really growing.

40:49.72

Serge Boudreau

That’s interesting because it’s the opposite here. Um I would say staffing firms recruitment agencies are by far the worst recruitment marketers in Canada when it comes to a when you look at competing against Ta Internal Ta teams and. How they’re recruiting. It’s the worst I’ve and I see a lot of them. Well, they’re not spending money on it here. No, I get that.

41:09.85

ThinkinCircles

I went I didn’t say we didn’t say there were any good I said they were just spending money on it I didn’t say that I teas but no I did.

41:21.13

Serge Boudreau

But yeah, no, there is no investment from staffing the recruitment firms unless that I’m missing a big part of the industry, but I am not seeing it and I’m still seeing even the worst job ads the worst career sites are coming from staffing and recruitment agencies and I just don’t get it. And you’re right I’ve been noticing that in u k with companies like yourself. There’s a big emphasis on doze. But I think overall, and I might be wrong staffing and recruitment agencies is bigger in the u k than it is in Canada it might be like the Us. but it’s not as big and I see it first-hand when I’m working when I was working as a practitioner, and I was dealing with trying to recruit and in different markets. There was an endless list of people reaching out to me from the Ku from staffing agencies and you don’t. See that as much in Canada obviously there’s a driving market for recruitment and staffing agencies here but nowhere near what it is in u k.

42:20.42

ThinkinCircles

I mean in in the yeah up there’s ah, there’s a figure that usually gets flung around where there’s something close to 30000 recruitment agencies in the up with employing around about 150000 people in the in the in the space and it’s about you know, 0.05% of the workforces or something is in is in is in recruitment. Um, ah, um, ah, but that’s including 1-man businesses all the way up to the huge the huge businesses. Ah, which I think ah you know it’s crazy I mean it’s such a flooded market. But obviously, a market where someone can quite easily can easily start their own recruitment agency work out their bedroom work out their little office and way into the how many 6 figures per year and have a good life because that’s it that is the space in the market for it. You know, um and I maybe that’s way, most cases you just what you just steal your old Firm’s database basically and can and crack on that’s usually what happened, but I don’t know I mean I know in the and I don’t think there’s that many in the Us right? I wouldn’t imagine I think the us is a much you know there’s ah, there’s the less players on and in that space, right? And probably much more well-known players. That’s a thing I think that’s like my observation.

43:35.42

Serge Boudreau

Yeah, I think you’re right? and it’s the same in Canada. There’s a lot less obviously population is lower, but I would be shocked if there’s 10000 in all of Canada compared to 300000 right and how much should you say thirty thousand thirty yeah there’s probably not even.

43:49.74

ThinkinCircles

yeah, thirty thousand yeah thirty Thousand recruits yeah, um surge it’s been an absolute pleasure talking with you today. We will obviously include all your details in the show notes and anybody who hasn’t listened to the recruitment flex.

43:55.25

Serge Boudreau

5000 in Canada would be my best guest.

44:06.86

ThinkinCircles

And needs to go listen to Surgeon Shelley it is a great listen um way more intellectual than the thinkers are than this po podcast are yeah, it’s you have what? yeah know? Yeah, you’re a master at your art ah Serge and I love listening to you guys Um. We’ll include a detail in the show notes and ah, but for now, thank you very much.

44:24.81

Serge Boudreau

Thank you so much James this was a ton of fun.

 

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