The Marketing Rules Podcast in Writing: Mike Ames

00:01.38

ThinkinCircles

Welcome back, everybody to the marketing rules podcast and it is my pleasure to have Mike Ames from Flair with me know I think Mike probably a lot of our listeners will probably know who you are ah because you’ve got a pretty good personal brand and a pretty good profile. But for those who don’t. Ah, I haven’t car ologist you before. Why don’t you tell us a little bit about yourself and a little bit about flair and the work that you do there.

00:28.30

Mike

Okay, thank you James and delighted to be here with you talking about a very interesting subject today actually? Um, okay so I am best described as a scalability consultant. So, I help people scale their business There’s this myth. But all you need to do to scale a recruit in business is add more staff get more clients get more vacancies fill them repeat and if you do that? What will happen is your business will implode and you’ll eventually become what they call a yo-yo company and recruitment is full of them. You need to create a solid foundation and what I do is help people. To do that using our 7 pillars methodology which some of you might have heard about at the moment we’re in the process of um, putting more of our content online so that people can access the sort of stuff that we normally do as a coach or consultant and people pay us for like live. But going to stick that sort 2 thirds of the way through now stick in that online so people can access it whenever they want, I’m very excited about that project to be doing well.

01:27.11

ThinkinCircles

You do a lot of live streaming and things yourself right? You where you know presenter yourself.

01:38.39

Mike

Recruitment show, which used to be every Thursday, but we’ve now changed it to twice a month because we’ve also launched a much shorter sort of 5 minute ask Mike ah YouTube channel. So, if you’ve got specific very granular questions. You can ask them, and I’ll nail them for you at least I’ll give you my viewpoint on it which. May or may not agree with. So yeah, we do and um, um, and occasionally we do webinars we do workshops we do all those things for free. So, I’m sure if people check me out on LinkedIn. They’ll see them all. There.

02:02.70

ThinkinCircles

Yeah, yeah, well as always, we’ll include all your details in the show notes at the end if anybody wants to know, ah a bit more but as you said what we’re going to discuss a day and dip into your wealth of knowledge. Um, specifically to with regards to recruitment agencies is sales of marketing. Um, and how you get the 2 to work together. You know there is the old and adage that you know the marketeers think of the sales guys over there picking up the phones and shouting down the phones and the sales guys think the marketeers are the colouring in department. Um, now as a marketeer myself. I’m more than aware that I know exactly what? what? What we do and I’m very aware of what the sales guys do but a lot of businesses that do are in the position to have a marketing team or an outsource marketing team and they’ve got their recruiters getting the 2 to work together and to really   gel. And get them to communicate together is really it can be quite difficult. Um, so let’s start there. How do we get the 2 let’s what how do we get the 2 teams to talk together to talk about the same thing and get and talk the same language which is maybe the first thing to overcome.

03:12.00

Mike

Okay, that’s that is an interesting subject. Um, and I’m glad we’re talking about this because in my first business which was quite rapid growth. We went to forty million quid in 10 years seventy odd million in today’s money because this was in the 90 s. We didn’t spend a single penny on marketing, and I was very proud of that. Um, and the reason that we didn’t spend any money on marketing is I didn’t know what it was quite frankly we were a relationship sales business, so we built relationships with people and then we sold to them is what we did. So, in my mind, marketing was as you say colouring in, I’m going to use that from now on it was pretty much mishmash money that was spent, and I couldn’t really see the benefit of it, so I didn’t do any of course had I known then what I know now about marketing. It would have been one hundred and forty million turnover business you know because. Um, if it’s done properly recruitment ah marketing particularly can be a massive support to the client facing team that you have if it’s set up properly and I think the first thing then in answer to your question is a proper awareness of what marketing can do for salespeople. In some cases, I think it’s viewed as a well they do that it doesn’t make any difference to us because I’m a salesman you see James good balance today on today’s show I don’t really care what they do because I’m just going to go and win clients really so you go ahead and do that boys and ah and we’ll just do this and actually it shouldn’t be like that at all I think the formation of a growth team which has marketers and salespeople and perhaps communicators on there as well I think is really important to bring it all together but awareness in answers to the question I think James.

04:51.14

ThinkinCircles

Yeah, and is that do we get there by just as simple as having the 2 teams even just sit near each other or work in the same environment or be able to bring 1 person from each team in on those team meetings. So, someone from a sales team joins the marketing meetings, and vice versa. Ah or is it the marketing team presenting to the sales team and vice versa. How do we   get the 2 kinds of communicating.

05:19.80

Mike

Okay, when most of the recruiters I deal with don’t have a marketing function or have a very basic one and I help them build something which is you would probably think it’s quite rudimentary because you’re a professional marketer I just want. Something that’s going to support the sales function I just want people to see the benefit of it and I think to answer your question. First, I think the marketers must make very clear what products effectively or services if you will. They’re offering the sales team and then what they will get from that, so it is a traditional feature benefit model look we can do this for you, and you’ll get that from it and then the third part of the triangle is they can prove that they deliver it look when we did this last time this happened, and you got that. So, if we do it again and you do this then we’ll get more of it. I think for me marketing for this is going to this is going to show my very simplistic view of marketing and I’m embarrassed to say this in front of you James but there you go here. We go as a salesman marketing for me is what we call the four cs, so I want someone who’s going to produce good quality thin. And chunky content is on both types I need both types for sure I want someone who’s going to produce some collateral which can have all my key messages in it, and I can use when I’m with a prospector with a client and I want it I want it to save me the bother of having to say things because it does it for me. Um I want someone I want um some campaigns to be built so that I can start a conversation with people add campaigns you know connection campaigns so that I can point the campaign at somebody and when I come in at the end. It’s no longer a cold call. It’s now a warm call. And lastly, I want a communication strategy which means all of our content and all of our collateral is being pushed out and put in front of the people that I wanted in front of and I want dashboards all over the place and then what the heck’s going on because I know as a salesman if I have that my job is easy because don’t Forget. In Recruitment. You must build a business which is going to produce exceptional results with average people because statistically you’re going To. You’re going to employ average people. You know, ah, it’s ah what do they call it a bell curve statistical Bell curves. You can’t fight that you know when you’re very small. You perhaps have all these brilliant people. But as you get bigger, you’re going to hire average people so you must have those average people delivering great results and one of the ways that you can do that is take away a lot of the heavy lifting with your marketing team. Let it do the work instead of your salespeople in those areas and leave them to do what they do. And I think if it’s presented in that way, we can do these 4 things for you. This is what you’ll get from them. This is how you use those things, and this is how we monitor it I think you get a completely different view of the from the salesforce of the marketers and what they do.

08:12.92

ThinkinCircles

Um, I mean I think that’s I don’t think that’s simplistic at all. What we might dd on is that strategic element as well. Like you know how does it align with the business and that’s one of the other things that um I always think is important that that marketers need to get involved with is right? What is marketing actually doing for the business where does the business wants to be here in 5 years’ time does marketing align to that and how does it  achieve those is apart from the  the day-to-day running stuff of getting your getting your message out in front of people and some nice  some nice pretty presentations for when you’re in those client meetings you know were how going to ah,  ah,  move that forward. I always think that finding something that the 2 teams can work on together. Okay, if there’s something that they can if there is a push for something within the business, I think that always helps right? So, we need. You know we’re looking for. We’re opening a new office here to get the sales teams and the marketeers to work together on that. I always think when you can get them a line like that then that’s always that always   works right.

09:33.66

Mike

I Think so I do like the idea of having a growth team though. Growth team meeting growth teams which are made up of different aspects of the growth function because that project becomes a whole lot easier then because look, we’re going to do this thing, what do you think what can you bring? Well, we could do this, and we need this, and you have ah a collegiate meeting rather than and us and then type of meeting. Well, it’s art marketing again, you know doing those things. Oh, bloody salesman not bloody. Ah you know I do think you’ve got to move away from that. Um, the starting point on that space. So, I would say would be the key messages definition of the 7 key messages that you need in marketing because when you have them, you’ve got a very clear definition of the people you’re going for what you want to say to them. Um, you have an idea of why you’re different why you stand out. Why. Clients would give you an opportunity. You know why they would choose you over someone else once? those are all defined which I think you must do together I don’t think you can just leave marketing to that, and you certainly can’t leave sales for that. That’s for sure if you can do that together. That’s a great start I think as well. Around the communications when you’re pushing content out or collateral 1 of those just as again, it’s all about nomenclature I suppose. But for the purposes of my discussions today content is just adding value either as thin content which is like blog posts or LinkedIn posts or chunky content which is content almost good enough to pay for almost good enough that the client would pay for it and so again, the salespeople are saying well you know we need this sort of stuff to go out so that people are going to react to it, or we need this piece of content chunky content Because. We want to offer it to all these prospects I aren’t really talking to us because you can change the dialogue away from hey gives a job or we’ve got this great candidate to hey would you be interested in this because it like deals with that problem I know you’ve all got it changes the narrative away from those transactional sales to something around a conversation that you can have, and more people are going to start a conversation with someone if they feel that they can get some benefit from it Well chunky content will do that, and the marketers produce a chunky content. So, but they don’t just sit in a room, and do it they work with the salespeople to make sure they get the right content that the Target market.

11:55.93

ThinkinCircles

Yeah, I completely agree. Um I think that that that stuff is as obviously they would as a market incredibly powerful, and I think it you know it. It can be the initiator of that conversation and build that awareness of the brand and make that done cleverly can make sure you’ve got a warm content when you do follow that through and um and target those people a big fan of that way of working. Um, so that’s the content piece and it’s interesting. You talk around like the growth strategy because we’re finding more and more marketeers considered as growth could cast themselves as growth. Marketeers. So that’s a very much more trendy term now for because that whole growth piece is a is where we I think the marketers want to position themselves within the business. It’s not just marketing. It’s growth marketing. Um, and I know from our own experience that. We define ourselves as a growth marketing agency as well. We what we have done in the past and that those 7 points that those 7 book key messages. You know a marketing speed. You know that’s your positioning statement. That’s who you are what you do? why? you do it who you do it for and why you’re better than everyone else at doing it. Um, and I think that again any business listing in if you can get to a stage where you’re defining that stuff which is difficult though as ah as a recruitment agency because you do some stuff. That’s very similar to everybody else more than likely. Um. And so, defining that I think can be difficult. So maybe so explore a little bit that but bit more Mike that would be interesting.

13:28.90

Mike

Oh, it is here. Well, the new term that people are using now is the flavour of recruitment and it’s a mix of different things. So did you know that ice cream I don’t know what your favourite flavour of ice cream is James but mine happens to be room and raisin. Moment, I don’t know whether you’ve got a favourite but that there you go. But if you did, I’m turning it we well that’s 98% the same as roman rain but it’s the 2% is a bit of colouring a bit of flavouring and in my case, a few raisins tossed it.

13:51.60

ThinkinCircles

I don’t I’m not a massive ice cream fan if I’d be honest, um, yeah, but yeah, but I do it would be chocolate or something like that right? And yet we prefer one over another quite vehemently and I don’t like min I don’t like Cho I like this that there’s a 2% difference recruitment is the same 98% of it is 5 boxes on a whiteboard you know, get client get vacancy and find candidates qualify candidates in place right? So, it really isn’t that difficult to do, but it is very hard to differentiate because we’re all doing the same thing. So, what you’re looking for is that 2% which is different which then gives you a flavour so that then you can say to the clients look you know if you if your tastes happen to coincide with our flavour and we can prove the flavour taste the way it does because we got all these video testimonials right? so. If it does and you eventually will work together. It’s not ah, it’s not a timing issue whether it’s three months three weeks or 3 years it makes a difference. This is our flavour and if you like it then come to us if you don’t then my advice is with due respect just go down the street and get somebody else’s flavour because this is ours and that’s alien to most recruit us because they want to embrace everybody and include everybody’s big mistake push away the people that aren’t right for you and the people that are will be attracted to you and this concept of productization which is a brand for ages I think it’s got out of hand quite frankly now to be fair.

15:20.99

Mike

That flavour is your product but it’s much more than that as Well. It’s your values. It’s your ups. It’s your promise of service. It is your plan the things that you offer with the feature benefit pairs. It’s you’re pricing. It’s the value ads that you give what else? do you do as well as put a Bu on a seed for somebody So that’s your flavour and you can really ran that out. And somewhere buried in the middle of it is we put a boom on a seat just like everybody else and I think if you focus on building a flavour when you do get in front of somebody because the marketers have run a campaign and at the end of it. Someone has said. Yeah, well Okay, what have you got then you can say well Okay, let me tell you what we have. And if you like this, we’ll do great things together if you don’t then we’ll just go our separate ways. It’s a massively compelling sales approach to take and it really works very powerful.

16:06.32

ThinkinCircles

Yeah, um, it’s an interesting point that um that your being very selective over your clientele. Um, which is difficult I think for a lot of recruitment agencies because you know, especially when they’re starting out. They’re going to take on everything. Um and that that message gets very much diluted very quickly with all good intentions. They set out going to be as niche as possible. We’re always told that recruitment recruiters need to be as niche as possible because as the as the ah our American Cousins butcher it.

16:35.46

Mike

Um, well I don’t necessarily agree with that. But I know I know people take that? yeah.

16:37.74

ThinkinCircles

Ah, riches the riches are in the niches, right? You know you know? um, but um, but yeah, it’s interesting being selective over your clientele and I guess the marketing can help with certain amount of that real defining who you want to work with yeah.

16:52.17

Mike

Massively so massively so because certainly with your communication strategy with the c that deals with communications and the thin content that you put out for sure as well as your collateral. Obviously, you put in this stuff out there and it’s basically saying look if you want. This flavour of recruitment and what you do your market is part of that flavour right? So, if you want this flavour of recruitment were you guys. You know you know you want to come to us if not, you need to go to those cats down the street because they’re the ones that do that. And I remember years ago in the 90 s we got a piece of work, and it turned out it was introduced to us from one of our competitors. 1 of their best clients because the client had asked for something that they couldn’t do, and they said Well it’s not as you need to talk to those guys they came. They did this one little bit of work for us. And then they went back to him, and we never saw head and a hair of them ever again. I think it’s that view that you’re comfortable in what you do, and you are at the very highest level, but you’re write on what you say about the stages that recruiters go through I heard about it as being or heard of it in in terms of the. 3 stages of mankind so that when we started out on the plains of Africa the question was what can I eat right? Sorry how can I eat so I’m just I just need to whatever I can do today to feed myself I’ll scavenge I’ll kill things I pick things or do whatever I can.

18:18.30

Mike

Hunter Gatherers and of course that’s a very unpleasant experience so you need then go to become a farmer then it’s what can I eat so have a choice now Ill plant things plant things I want pick can choose what I want and then the third stage which we all want to get to be where can I do lunch because we don’t really know where the money is coming From. We don’t care if wave got this business. Does all this stuff so stuff and we pony around at the top of it and when you start you are how can I eat but you don’t want to stay there. That’s for I’m sure you need to get out of that phase quickly and get into what can I eat and then become known as the guy to guys go to guys or go to girls that do that thing in the middle, and whatever that is for you. We do this I mean we can do all these other things as well. But we’re not going to talk about that. We’ll only talk about that when you’re a client but right now as an entry board. We are the go-to people for this and then they come and once you’re in well you can sell them whatever you like aren’t you. But. I think in that positioning which is a tremendous amount of marketing I think is involved in that so that people look at you and say I mean whoever hired average at anything I’ll go out and I’ll hire someone I’ll get the most average person we want the best person we want the person who’s that is the. Well known. Ah, as being able to deliver in that space. We don’t like at an average Joe average. So, I think it’s important for us as recruiters to be able to make sure that our image is such that with a go to person for whatever it is that we make the most money out of.

19:43.36

ThinkinCircles

Yeah, I mean I like that 3 stages of recruitment growing up and it’s interesting because you’re marketing and how you market and what you market will change will develop with that. Um, if you are a start-up then there’s no what you’re not going to be able to afford ah a marketing agency. You’re going to have to get your hands dirty at that point. Um and have a go it yourself and then you get to or growing up and what you talk about now you know, but.

20:08.81

Mike

You can smart sort it out. You know that many of the things that you need things like your key messages you can. You can have a gut you can. They can be good enough to go out with you know your communications strategy I’ll make a LinkedIn post every week I mean it doesn’t have to be complex. To start off with and I would argue it never has to be complex. But you know that’s just me. But I think that you the simpler it is the easier. It is. You’ll make a start and the and the sooner you’ll make a start the sooner. You’ll start to get the benefits from it.

20:37.92

ThinkinCircles

I completely and absolutely agree and I tell you what that is a great place to finish on our today I think Mike um, thank you very much It’s been an absolute pleasure ah dipping into your brain for the last  20 minutes um I’m sure we’ll have you back on at some point in the future if anybody does want to know more and work with Mike then we’re going to include all of your details in the show notes. So, anybody can. Reach out. Ah but Mike Ames thank you very much for being guest today.

21:01.70

Mike

Thank you for having me.

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